This is the direct link to the (German) article Melanie Gajowski | Doppelpunkt
Thank you Bart, my experience is that giving people or activities different values often has to do with our own belief system.
I prefer a need based allocation of money. This is how I live since 2013.
I measure what I get only on my needs. So all the negative thoughts around comparing who has more stopped naturally.
With this comes a responsibility to also take care about what other people need. This is a muscle we have not trained enough yet and where I would love to work more with the humans within SEEDS who are interested in exploring this further
Thanks for this impulse. I agree. It‘s important how we address all these questions.
My observation is that the knowledge about our personal way of valueing ourselves and giving gratitude to others is a good starting point for this.
Ideally we can create a design that hails us all on this journey
Yes I would love to get in touch.
I believe for a new infrastructure there needs to be a new architecture. Money is no limitation only tax, speculation and fraud are limitations.the problem is that our financial system is hijacked through artificial scarcity. If we could provide food and shelter we are free of most restrictions. But of course it’s much more complex.
Fully agree @Arian - I work with a lot of people who start something new and the first sentence is always: I / we need money before we are able to start.
We never need money, we need, like you say shelter, food and health.
And maybe, if we start for example a little coffee shop we need a a coffee maschine…
And we need to have what ever kind of way to express gratitude and say thank you. The further I get in my personal quest the more I doubt that money it the right tool for this
This topic is at the core of the shadows I’m surfacing in SEEDS and at the core of our ability to grow the organization. Universal basic income and basic earned income were popular topics last year but have fallen off the radar. I’m passionate about implementing this for seedizens to spread the movement. HYPHA has been reluctant to actually create systems in which members of seeds can earn seeds for roles,contributions and quests like is available in the HYPHA DHO. I have seen many dedicated and talented people come and go because they need to support themselves and after promises of remuneration they end up working for free. This is at the core of the issues facing widespread adoption. It’s time to open up the seeds wallet for citizens to get paid for contributions. What if we took the large salaries of the tyHYPHA roles and divided the amount and dispersed it to the active residents and citizens? Then they could be active members in the SEEDS economy and able to support themselves. I’m sure we would be growing the grassroots movement like wildfire! Our onboarding and adoption would soar with passionate people looking to join and work in this new paradigm!
I wrote a piece recently that I shared on Discord about the solution to the worlds problems of hunger and environmental destruction is grassroots. I’d like to add a follow up piece that talks about how our DHO technology and decentralization can build and nourish grassroots movements putting the ability to propose and fund solutions in the hands of those at the bottom on the ground in the movement.
I want to add to this topic after reviewing the new proposal on the co-op for RE funding. Frankly I’m disheartened by the proposal. From what I am reading RE is setting a basic earned income at S3333 or $266 per month. Furthermore additional work to be rewarded at S111 or $8.88 per hour. These amounts are extremely low and will not attract people into the ecosystem with abundance mindset or even self worth. Please consider that most HYPHA roles doing similar work as RE earn over $100k per year or more than $48/hour based on a 40 hour work week. I will leave this here for you all to ponder.
I’ve been removed from the HYPHA and SEEDS Discord servers for my opinions and am stepping away completely. I hope my short lived time in RE has brought some light to the issues facing the growth of the SEEDS movement. Good Luck!
Thanks Bart, this is super interesting.
I am in Hypha and while I feel that yes we are creating a system of abundance, I also want to point out that everyone who is here took a massive financial hit to be here. Ok I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me, definitely. In the beginning we had a rule that 2500 USD / month was the maximum cash anyone could ask for the rest was deferred in Seeds and Hypha, on the promise that one day, it would be worth something.
So we did receive generous - and appropriately for an abundant world - salaries, but the majority of that salary was paid in tokens.
Now I want to ask you, if I come to you now, and tell you, hey, I got this cool new project, but going to pay you 75% in this token, would you join?
Maybe yes, but only if you deeply believed in this project. If you felt it can change the world, and you would much rather do that, than - speaking for myself - take up a blockchain programmer gig for 200 USD / hour (it’s more now - there’s a huge shortage in this field).
So to give you a clear vision of the salary situation: I have 2 kids, and I earned pretty much exactly what I spent each month, and the company had a financial runway of 1 or 2 months, and paid mostly in tokens.
This selects people who really would die for the cause. So my perception of Hypha members is, most people I know wouldn’t do that. Some of our programmers are 50% for the same reason - they have a “real job” with job security and whatnot.
Figuring out the compensation for Seeds work is another topic.
Seeds the system has enough capital to compensate people very well who work on it - the Seeds tokens are currently still underpriced in my opinion, so getting Seeds at the current rate can be enormously abundance-generating down the road. This is by design.
We also don’t have a normal ICO where traders snap up the tokens, drive up the price, and normal people who are not traders don’t get anything - Seeds gives out Seeds to regenerators for the very reason that we believe it’s a fantastic opportunity that is usually reserved for a very small class of people.
So Seeds generates abundance. One thing that we need to figure out along the way is how can people pay their rent with what they’re doing, as that goes to the root, and the core of this post also.
I am not sure but the same I wasn’t sure how Hypha would be able to pay my rent when we had a 1 month runway of capital. As I see it, Seeds is supported by the universe and so are we, and so we will figure it out.
The opportunity is huge - for example if we, here, in this very discussion forum, manage to help Seeds get to 100,000 users - not even 1M - then Seeds would be the most used cryptocurrency in the world, with more users than Bitcoin! We are at the very very beginning of crypto. If we only sign up 10% of all the spiritual people in the world, we can easily reach that number.
This is true in any startup, so really, Seeds at the moment is for people who want to give it all, who want to risk it all, and who think that that’s a good use of their time, vs. the pseudo-safety of an office job, or whatever else they consider safe.
I want to reply to the main post too, because that topic is so very interesting.
Thank you @nikolaus for this open, transparent and honest answer. It touched my heart, because I feel you hit the point on to many things I just named with „shadow work“
Would I defer compensation for a vision like Hypha or SEEDS?
Yes and No - as long as I have enough FIAT money to pay the bills in the world that‘s called „the real world“ yes. I normally live with a „security net“ meaning I always have 3 month reserve for paying the running costs. So today I do not need FIAT money.
… I am planning to leave my job and fully focus on regenerative finance so I have to be sure that FIAT money comes in to pay my bills.
… would this be the responsibility of Hypha or SEEDS?
In my view the answer is: NO! If I (with a background in the ART OF BANKING) want to be part of this new world I have to invest first like all of you in Hypha did. I have to be part of finding a solution for my (and others) money need
…If the ecosystem needs my little piece of wisdom, knowledge and work we all together will find a way to make sure that my basic needs … WHICH I NEED TO OPENLY ADDRESS (self responsibility !) will be met. Here the trust comes in. I have to trust that Hypha, SEEDS or other 3 letter thing I don‘t yet understand, will help me to cover me needs as long as they are reasonable. In my view this is part of my investment.
I hope that we will find a space in Hypha and SEEDS where we all can speak about money, our shadows as well as our relationship with it.
I don‘t have kids which means I have different needs. I only have to pay for my own rent, which means I have to adapt my needs so that people like you can nurture their families.
Currently in my observation we compare salaries and not the real needs and with this we sometimes forget that this should be a give and take.
If we want to make this a success we need to stop comparing and complaining. We need to be honest and to define our needs. And we need to trust that we all together find a way to cover the basic needs.
Sorry if this answer was a bit cryptic and maybe not helpful for those who do not feel that the current system is fair.
In my view we - and with this the people who started this work long before me- all do the best we can.
Tomorrow we might do it differently, because we learnt and know more. And still today everyone does the best he/she can at this very moment in time
My offer is still there: let‘s come together and openly speak about our relationship with money. I am happy to hold the space for this.
@niki maybe let‘s discuss if Circeling could be a good way to start this.
Thank you @Carleymonty for bringing up the topic. I have a different view on this and this is why I feel it‘s important that I work on my own shadows and my relationship with money to get the right balance for fair compensation.
Money and (self) value are somehow related and I need to find out why sometimes it triggers me if other people earn more than I do.
My current answer is: I have not yet really understood my personal needs. But this is of course only the individual answer for me and my current situation and may not help you at all.
I love your response, even though I didn’t get to even write my own writeup about my own struggles and shadows and the - at least for now - overcoming of the shadows. Looking for the cheapest meal with $6 in my bank account. Knowing that experience to be necessary and to be the path. Maybe they come back around - I am ready any time. Shadows pop up unexpectedly, and when they do, I know it serves me best to face them. If I do not, they will simply come back around another time.
All of us are heavily traumatized by the existing slave money system.
We all think there is not enough to go around
We all believe it may be possible we may not be supported by God / The Universe.
We all think something bad will happen when we don’t watch out - some have it more, some have it less, very few individuals here on earth don’t have it (and they have other stuff to karmically walk through so no need to compare)
I’ve met so many billionaires who were deeply unhappy - they seek friendship and love, but their money builds a wall around them where fake friends and people with money issues hang around trying to get something. They don’t trust anyone, they never know, their best friend, their lover, truly loves them - is that not a worse fate than being broke? I think it is.
In some societies this belief in scarcity is so ingrained it’s normal your stuff gets stolen in bright daylight!
So we have to acknowledge that that’s where we are. In this insane asylum of a planet, run by dark controllers who rule by fear, and use the money system for this control, primarily. We’re all conditioned to have shadows around money.
So here we are, building a new world of abundance!
Imagine where we are going - and imagine you’re already there! Nobody suffers! Everyone has enough to get all needs met. Nobody hoards, or accumulates, because they have absolute faith, that whatever they want to do, theyre supported.
Everyone knows - should I suddenly need to build an airport tomorrow, the resources will come to me in no time! So nobody hoards, grabs, accumulates, or feels unsafe.
Imagine this is the world we live in.
This is where we are going, and this image needs to be in everyone’s heart - not mind, but heart - who is here.
Think about it - if WE don’t believe it will work, then who will? If we don’t build it, who will? We are doing it, and we’re doing it now, and we know that our belief is important in this equation, so we decide to believe.
It’s also the truth - but as we all know our own shadows, doubts, little voices in our head, are trying their hardest to convince us otherwise.
Especially in this time of global fear. The old world is dying, and we are the DNA that is creating a whole new level of existence out of the parts of the old.
Thanks for your opinion, @Carleymonty. I want to point out that these sums are not for holding roles - there are no accountabilities or deliverables connected to them. We’re just supporting everyone’s participation.
The sums are designed in this way as to discourage people selling the Seeds right away and thus extracting value out of the system. If we take the perspective of S111=111USD in the future - then this is a very good consulting fee. Same for S3333. But everyone needs to contribute in order for the system to get there.
Also - should contributing to the game guide evolution be a lucrative financial endeavor for the people participating? I’m not sure about that. A pinch of altruism may be required. And it shouldn’t be the main source of income for people, at least at this stage.
I’m sorry that you were banned! I’d be curious to find out what’s the reasoning behind that.
Thank you @nikolaus and @apostol for your comments. I came into SEEDS to spread the movement and with the distinct promises of decentralization and abundance. If we could just guarantee this to all people coming into contribute then the movement could spread like wildfire.
@apostol your logic about getting paid less to hold seeds seems flawed to me. When HYPHA defers a large portion of their earning till go live seems more adequate. Why would someone work for pennies with the promise it would be worth something someday? This whole thing could fail and people need money for their expenses today. If you want to have a successful movement I would recommend figuring out how to compensate people for their undivided attention.
As far as the exact reason I was banned it was the moderators discretion. Something about my comments being “detrimental to a healthy development of the community” and that my issues were private matters. While I don’t agree the moderator is not required to have any more dialog with me. As with the person in HYPHA I’ve had my issues with who has refused to just have a conversation with me to clear things up the moderator had taken the same path of alienation and ghosting. The reason why this hit the public forum is because the person took to a public chat to address me instead of addressing me privately. Then he shared our private conversations on my WOL Channel. When I did the same and addressed him on his WOL channel and posted my side to my WOL channel I was banned.
When we talk about inner circle in RE I want to make sure it’s more than ceremonies and kumbaya moments. The reason why I wanted to create this same circle was to focus on our virtues and things like authentic relating, organizational psychology, conflict resolution, shadow work of the organism. For as long as members of HYPHA/SEEDS can just ghost and ignore people at will because it is uncomfortable this will tear at the fabric of the organism. The inner circle has the ability to set the foundation of how we treat each other.
As I wrap up my final installations for the public art campaign i have commissioned a series of pieces for the online exhibition “The Hipocrisy of Hypha”. I feel like I’ve exhausted every Avenue for resolution available and I’m clear that I cannot be effective in SEEDS with the heart pain I have. So I will resort to what brought me into SEEDS, the idea that art Can be used to spread the movement.
Thanks a lot for this @Melanie, It feels like you’re speaking through me in a way, articulating my very thoughts and feelings of the last few months.
This question has been alive for me since the beginning. I joined SEEDS at the time when I was (and I still am to some degree) in between full-time academic studies & research and employment. As the pandemic and the corresponding regulations were starting to limit and define our every days, I turned to online spaces and communities to channel my unused energies, seek support, and align my vision of a world that could be so much more beautiful with that of others.
While I’m still searching my place “out there” it gives me some reassurance that my efforts “in here” might be/ will be recognised and appreciated, with the acknowledgement that the time invested in SEEDS is time not invested in regular, paid work in our consensus economy.
What I’m often missing from our conversations in SEEDS is exactly this:
That we can be honest about where we come from and what we need in order to show up with our whole selves and contribute with our gifts.
I have the feeling that we need a different space for these discussions. Circling has no pre-defined topic and goal, it is what the people participating will make of it, what is alive with each of us in the present moment that we feel inclined to share. In any case, I’d love to be part of a circle on this!
Thanks @nikolaus for articulating this perspective, the “skin in the game” argument. I appreciate everyone who joined during that especially fragile phase and trusted that it could work. I do believe though that you need more than a deep belief that it could work. You need to also be in a position where you can afford committing with time and energy and risking what you have.
In your other post on abundance (Abundance Mindset), you list that you felt just as broke with $6 in your pocket as with $100k in assets. While it’s a compelling argument that millionaires can be just as unhappy and unsatisfied with what they have as the poor, equating $6 with $100k in this way doesn’t feel right to me. There is a living wage under which no one should fall as daily struggles consume you, and a wage above which you don’t feel the difference anymore. It doesn’t add to your wellbeing.
SEEDS - beyond selecting people who would “really die for the cause” as you say - also selects for people in a comfortable enough position to be able to browse through endless discord channels, show up for meetings throughout the day, and wholeheartedly contribute without having to worry about compensations. Or, it may be that this is more of an implicit expectation of SEEDizens, rather than actual reality. If that’s the case, we could either state this criterion more explicitly to manage expectations, or actually offer a minimum income to support those who need it.
Amazing discussion! Thanks to All of You.
A deep believe in what one is doing and is involved with is what I would wish for every being to feel That you need to truly believe in it to be ready to join to me sounds like a good thing.
It is such a barrier how much of a deep dive into discord and everything else you need to get a good enough sense of what is happening to be ready to contribute. I feel what could really improve this situation is when all developments and tasks are listed in 1 overview. This could be the missing flow of communication between Discord and the project development. I see I have been having this urge to see this come to life for quite some time but I’m just not prioritizing to start developing it. I think what Hypha has is already one step ahead in this sense, there is quite a clear list of expertises and developments needed on the platform of Hypha and you can basically apply to take these things on.
I don’t know what the solution here would be but it really keeps me thinking. Now there is this ocean of information and how are we going to simplify it for people to choose a direction before they get overwhelmed by all the information and put SEEDS back to the side? Solving this could create the call for many others to join the movement.
There is a proto-DHO called dStudio that made the little green dot at top-left corner of the latest version of the Passport app (you can see it in the Voting section). That is called “Game of Seeds”. The vision for it is to have a lots of quests that would be video guided and on multiple languages and would guide people in the SEEDS Ecosystem directly from the mobile app - that would enable and empower SEEDS’s participants engagement at scale. We from RE can also collaborate with them on this at some point.
Oh thank you so much @niki for sharing your experience, mind and heart. I hear you.
Both yours and @Melanie’s view points are so close to what my heart feels. Thank you
I wanted to cross post my comment from another topic here: RE Hypha Quest Discussion - #11 by Kath.PlanetHive
I am more than happy to participate in any conversation around compensation in the light of the Pro Social principles for highly effective groups (especially No. 2, No. 3 and No. 6):
- Shared identity and purpose
- Equitable distribution of contributions and benefits
- Fair and inclusive decision-making
- Monitoring of agreed behaviours
- Graduated responding to helpful and unhelpful behaviours
- Fast and fair conflict resolution
- Authority to self-govern (according to principles 1-6)
- Collaborative relations with other groups (using principles 1-7)
If we collectively feel this is a pathway to walk along for us explorers (and maybe all SEEDizens), I would offer to see if we could seek support from a ProSocial Facilitator.
@Kath.PlanetHive Thanks for the offer - I would definitely accompany you on this pathway.
I did not take part in the discussion initiated by @apostol about the Hypha quest because I just do not go in resonance with this specific event.
For me it is totally okay that this Hypha proposal exists. I agree that there would have been a better way to communicate and still: everyone did the best he/she can, if they could have done better they would.
Why am I not triggered by this specific event: Because I decided in 2013 to fully live with a need based mindset and for the coming 3 month I do not need money. My feeling is that those who have initiated it need money (or an equivalent) right now - maybe for different reasons. Still it‘s okay for me that they get what they need - specially as they have worked for it.
Having said this: My view and my feelings might be very different in 3 months. That‘s why I would love that we design a future process (and learn from what has come up now). I feel that your pathway is one that could make sense and as you have the energy to lead this I am happy and willing to follow if we find a time that works for all of us as also for me a healthy sleep is very important to keep balance
Thank you @Melanie I feel very aligned with your words and view point.
I do some sensing for a session with a pro social facilitator. Let’s see where it leads us.